Catherine Langman:
Well, hello there. It’s Catherine Langman, back with another episode of the Productpreneur Success Podcast. And this week on the show, I’m actually joined by one of my graphic designers and really good friends, Janelle Changuion.
Catherine Langman:
And we are going to be talking all things branding, brand design, how to create an authentic brand through design and your imagery, and all of that sort of good stuff.
Catherine Langman:
And I’m really keen to bring this episode to you guys. I see… Well, let me back up for a quick second. When I first started my corporate career, I was working in branding and design studios. And I’ve not ever been a designer, but I’ve always been surrounded by this expertise, and being really immersed into all of this part of the marketing process.
Catherine Langman:
And so, to me, when I first started my first business, my product brand, it was a no brainer for me that I would start with brand design and proceed from there.
Catherine Langman:
But what I see happen a lot with startups and early stage businesses is that, there’s this perception that they just need to get a logo designed, and then they can tick off branding from their to do list, and that responsibility is done and dusted, and off they go.
Catherine Langman:
And I know how this happens. People who are starting businesses without having that kind of background or experience in branding, or design, or marketing, don’t really understand the necessity or the power that are really well-designed brand can really have at establishing your brand and building your brand into a really profitable, lucrative venture.
Catherine Langman:
And so what I see happen is, you take this logo design off your list, and off you go. And then I see people coming up with all sorts of issues around not being able to really stand out in the marketplace, struggling to really attract, and engage, and connect with ideal customers, or build an audience, or anything like that. And frustration about why is this not working for me in my business.
Catherine Langman:
And a lot of it can actually stem back to not really following the right steps when it comes to designing your brand. And so, I’m really excited to go through this topic with Janelle. And the cool thing is, that Janelle has actually started her own product based business now. So she’s been going through this from the other side of the desk. Normally she’s the designer, walking clients through this process. And now she’s had to go through it herself.
Catherine Langman:
It’s very different doing it for yourself than it is doing it for other people. So we can break down her experience doing this with her own brand, and step it out for you, and share a few anecdotes and stories and examples to really bring this to life for you. So without further ado, let’s welcome Janelle onto the show.
Catherine:
So welcome to the show Janelle. And let me see if I get this right, Janelle Changuion.
Janelle Changuion:
Yes. That’s right.
Catherine:
I don’t speak French, but it’s a beautiful name. So welcome to the show. And we have actually worked together for several years, and I’m really excited to have you on the show, especially as you have transitioned a little bit from your career as a branding and graphic designer to a product inventor. So would you like to introduce yourself a little bit and tell us a little bit about what you have been doing and what you’re doing now?
Janelle Changuion:
Sure thing. So, yeah. I’ve been a graphic designer for over 15 years now working in the design and print industry. So, spent a lot of my early years doing design for print companies, that’s kind of what I know best. Then when I had my kids, I was like, I don’t want to do the nine to five anymore. I decided to start up my own graphic design business and I wanted to do branding for clients who I was interested in. So particularly in the kids and female, women’s kind of small businesses and I helped them establish their brand identities and logo designs and websites and printed material and whatnot for them. And I did that for, well, I think it was seven or eight years. Just loved every minute of it.
Janelle Changuion:
Then, I just recently had… Not recently, she’s two years old now. So had my little two year old and been a little bit busy with her. I kind of toned down the design business a bit and thought I’ve always really loved designing, packaging and whatnot for product based businesses and working with people like yourself Cath, who are quite involved with product based businesses. It was all far too appealing. So I decided, well, maybe I can do that too.
Janelle Changuion:
So, Green + Bare was born. Green + Bare is a natural skincare line and I make everything in small batches at home at the moment. Been doing that for the last year, building up the brand and trying to get the brand name out there and hopefully it turns into a full-time gig.
Catherine:
Yeah, totally. I just had a little chuckle to myself when you said, starting out working in print design, which in 2021 kind of feels like a quaint idea right now, doesn’t it?
Janelle Changuion:
Yes, I know. It does. Not so much of it anymore, unfortunately.
Catherine:
I know, because that’s how I started out as well and I used to love it. You’d receive the box of whatever the printed items were and you’d open it up and you’d smell that smell of the ink and the paper.
Janelle Changuion:
Yes, definitely. And that’s why I still buy magazines for that reason. I just love to hold the beautiful piece of artwork in my hand. You definitely don’t get that as much these days unfortunately.
Catherine:
No, totally. Although I suppose in some respects you can kind of have a little bit of that enjoyment when you’re doing the packaging design, which I know that you’ve enjoyed doing specially with Green + Bare.
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah. For sure.
Catherine:
Yeah. Awesome. So we’re going to have a bit of a chat about branding, because creating a brand and building a brand and designing a brand and all things branding is so essential for our audience. Our audience, mainly being e-commerce brands. And I thought let’s start with what is brand design? I think a lot of people probably assume it’s just a logo, maybe choosing some colors for their logo and that’s it. So let’s start there and maybe you could enlighten us a little bit.
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah, sure. Okay. So generally when I meet people, when I say that I’m a graphic designer, they often don’t know what that means exactly. It’s more than just designing a logo and slapping it on a box and that’s the sort of effort that people expect from a graphic designer if they’re not aware of what exactly brand design is. Brand design is all encompassing of your company or your business’s personality as brand voice. So that comes through obviously your logo, your brand colors, but also things like your typography, your copywriting, your packaging, your email design, your website.
Janelle Changuion:
That all needs to be very consistent, concise, to build up trust with your potential customers and all your customers that you have already. I think where a lot of people go wrong is that they do just think it’s a logo and they just pop that logo on everything without thinking about all the other elements that surround it. So, it’s about creating that consistency through all of those elements so that when people think about your brand, they know what to expect.
Janelle Changuion:
And when they’re scrolling through Instagram or Facebook or wherever it is, and they see something, they know that it’s yours without having to see where it’s coming from. So it’s kind of like when you think about McDonald’s, all those things that you think about that has to do with them, or if you think about Mac as a brand, you’re not just thinking about the apple logo, there’s so much other stuff that comes into that brand. You automatically know that it’s Apple without having to see the Apple.
Catherine:
Yeah, 100%. It’s all of their kind of language and their imagery so it has a very particular aesthetic to it and tone of voice to it.
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah. That’s right.
Catherine:
I can’t even remember who said this to me at first, but I heard somebody tell a story years ago describing the whole of your brand as kind of being a little bit like a universe in the way that there’s the Marvel Universe and how every single Marvel film feels quite familiar because it’s that same sort of aesthetic, just with different characters.
Janelle Changuion:
That’s right. Yes. That’s definitely it.
Catherine:
You touched on a point just before where you mentioned that, say a potential customer or one of your customers might see something from your brand on social media for instance, and they should be able to easily recognize that it’s yours.
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah.
Catherine:
Further than that, why is branding and I guess just generally speaking that the imagery and the graphics and the photography that you use, so important for a product business?
Janelle Changuion:
So as I touched before, first of all, it’s more professional to be consistent everywhere. So consistency equals professionalism, professionalism equals trust. So you’re going to trust the brand more if everything’s consistent, polished, well presented rather than sloppy and all over the place and, I can’t quite see that image properly, it’s a bit dark or that angle’s a little bit off. I can’t quite see what I’m buying. So it’s all about that.
Janelle Changuion:
There’s no fear in purchasing a product online if it clearly communicates to your customer what it is that they’re buying. So unlike a brick and mortar store, you can’t pick up the product and you can’t gauge it for yourself. You need to go off what you see.
Catherine:
So true.
Janelle Changuion:
I think that removes the fear of buying a product online if that’s clearly communicated to the potential buyer. They’re going to end up in more sales conversions. And I think also we’ve turned to this more image based kind of society where we’re just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, if you see something instantly, you’re like, “Wow, what is this?,” and then you kind of go to the reading or finding out what it is. It’s kind of like your store’s shop window you’re walking past and you can see it straight away. It’s like, “Wow, I need to know more about it”.
Catherine:
It’s like that immediacy. That visual communication helps with that immediacy.
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah.
Catherine:
I suppose we all have pretty short attention spans these days so you need something to stand out very quickly in order to engage with that audience.
Janelle Changuion:
They say you need scroll stopping imagery and branding.
Catherine:
Yeah, which I guess means you can’t really blend into the landscape of what’s common really can you?
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what I’m always thinking about with my own products. I do have a look at the competitors and see what they’re doing and I always walk away going, “Okay, how can I do this differently? How can I stand out from the crowd? How can I make myself more unique?”. Your product might not necessarily be a hundred percent unique and floods the market these days, but you can certainly make your branding and your photography stand out from the crowd if you’re clever enough.
Catherine:
Yeah. Well, I guess a point in case there would be Who Gives A Crap Toilet Paper. Bamboo toilet paper’s already on the market, That’s not really a new invention. But they do the whole branding, the humorous tone of voice. Everything’s got that same look and feel, but also the humor in it is consistent across the board. You immediately know it’s them.
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah.
Catherine:
And I guess with your branding on Green + Bare which is so beautiful, but the thing that I love about the way you’ve created this new brand of yours is, it’s very humorous as well. You’re not taking yourself too seriously or anything like that. It’s a lot of fun to interact with your website and all of the different elements that you’ve created which I think’s awesome.
Janelle Changuion:
Yes. Our tagline is skincare should be raw, messy, just like real life. So, not all perfectly polished or got all these perfect lives, even though it might seem that on Instagram, but life is a little messy.
Catherine:
It is, yeah. I’m down with that. I remember with my first business, which was a modern cloth nappy brand, our tagline was life happens in… the brand name, and our unofficial tagline was, shit happens in the diaper bag because it literally did. But all of the images and everything was very kind of like cheeky kids getting up to mischief and all of that sort of stuff and it was a lot of fun.
Catherine:
I guess you just mentioned your tagline there, which I guess kind of hints a little bit about your values as a brand. It’s a bit more real life, bit down to earth, not super polished or pretend in any way. As a brand designer, how do you go about trying to communicate brand values through that design?
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So again, it comes down to consistency. I can’t remember exactly what the statistics were, but clients or customers have to hear or see something a certain amount of time before it gets in their brain. So you don’t want to just, one time when you’re first starting out your business say these are what our brand’s values are and that’s kind of it.
Janelle Changuion:
You need to consistently communicate that through different medias. So through testimonials or through infographics. Thinking about another nappy brand actually, she’s constantly communicating the importance of the environment and it’s not just one thing that she talks about every now and then. It’s something that she puts into each and every… Through the website, through social media, through whatever goes out, messages and that kind of thing.
Catherine:
Is that Seedling Baby?
Janelle Changuion:
Yes.
Catherine:
That’s a good one for people to check out actually because you’re right, she’s super consistent even down to the way she designs the fabric prints as well I think.
Janelle Changuion:
Yes. Yes, it’s all very earth based so you can do that in so many different ways. Again, it’s about consistency. You really want to consistently communicate those brand values through those different mediums.
Catherine:
I would say, probably a lot of people when they are kind of thinking about starting up a product-based business, often wouldn’t go through an exercise where they’re thinking about what their brand values are. I know you and I have been kind of working on just a little bit of a side project this week and looking at what the values are for that organization and then figuring out little ways that we can try and communicate that visually. But, I think it is really important. A brand value, a list of values, you want them to be integral to the whole business, not just, “Oh, this is going to stand out visually”.
Janelle Changuion:
Not a side note.
Catherine:
No, exactly. Seedling Babies’ a great example I think. I’m glad you brought that one up because she weaves her values for the environment and sustainability into the entire fabric of what the business is all about as well as very much so communicating that with the visual element and typography and all of that stuff and the fabric designs as we were saying.
Janelle Changuion:
Yes, that’s right.
Catherine:
So how did you go about thinking about those things for Green + Bare because obviously you are going through this for yourself now? It’s different coming at it from the other side of the table, isn’t it?
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah, for sure. So I kind of just sat down and thought, okay. I wasn’t initially into skincare, but it was something that evolved with me. It was about taking some time out for myself. So I really felt like I was burning myself out. I wasn’t making a lot of time for myself. I kind of don’t realize that I’m not doing that. I’m very much focused, I need to get my work done, everything else comes later including myself.
Janelle Changuion:
I think that was the biggest value for me was that if I’m like this, how many other women who have got children and businesses to run et cetera, et cetera are lacking the time and the means to pamper themselves and take some time out for themselves, even if it’s just 20 minutes a day, at the end of the day? That made for me personally made a huge difference just having that 20 minutes in the evening to slow down and unwind and shake off the busyness of the day. I guess I could have gone for a run or something like that in the evenings, but I’m not really into that so much.
Catherine:
That’s a bit hard with a two year old in the house really isn’t it?
Janelle Changuion:
Yes, yes it is.
Catherine:
Can’t just leave them at home can you?
Janelle Changuion:
Yes. So I can shut the door though. So I shut the door and just have 20 minutes to myself. And that was also another creative outlet. I’m sort of an active relaxer and going for walks and stuff like that but it was like another creative outlet for me to experiment with the different ingredients and oils and stuff like that. And I had a lot of fun playing around with those. So that’s kind of where it all came about.
Catherine:
And now I guess you’ve created this brand where it’s almost a little bit like a mission to try and help women to be okay with looking after themselves and making some time to pamper themselves a little bit just for their own wellbeing.
Janelle Changuion:
Yes, yes. It was actually quite an interesting little thing that I went through with some of my friends and family. I sent them out a whole bunch of samples to try out before we launched and it was interesting to see who came back to me quite quickly and then people who came back to me like a month after. And, I’m like, “Have you had a chance…,” and they say, “Oh, I’m so sorry, I’ve been so busy”. Like, you’ve literally been so busy-
Catherine:
You can’t take 20 minutes for yourself?
Janelle Changuion:
It was interesting, but it was kind of sad at the same time.
Catherine:
And you were probably surprised right?
Janelle Changuion:
No I wasn’t. I was like, that would be totally something I would probably say as well. Like I literally haven’t time to even think about it, let alone implement it. So yes, it definitely made me realize that it’s not just me, that it’s quite a few of us that are bogged down with the busyness of modern life. So it’s definitely something that I want to try and communicate through the brand to get people to slow down.
Catherine:
Yes, I love it. So good. So I guess that leads quite nicely actually into my next question because I was going to ask you, when should we be thinking about your brand identity and your brand values and your brand design, should you be thinking about it when you’re starting out or down the track? I mean, obviously anyone can rebrand if they want to, but when’s a good time to be really considering this? I’ve got my thoughts on that but I’d love to hear yours.
Janelle Changuion:
Yes. I think that if you’re thinking about starting some kind of product-based business, it’s definitely something that you should tackle head on first. I think it’s a real good skeleton to build the rest of your branding around as your brand values. So figuring out your why, people love to hear the story of why. They really resonate with other people’s personal experiences. So certainly sit down and do some brainstorming around your why.
Janelle Changuion:
And I think if you’re looking at doing a rebrand and you’re a little bit confused about what is my why, what are our values, brainstorm some ideas around that and then take those ideas and try and communicate them through a rebrand. So communicate those things to your graphic designer that this is what we want to portray to people, just getting that clarity of what it is that you want to communicate. You’re not just another product-based business with a product to sell. You’ve got a story to tell, you’ve got intention behind your brand.
Catherine:
Stories. 100%. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, stories are what people remember and they can be visual stories, they can be stories communicated through words or through video, but stories are what people engage with and remember, not facts or describing features or anything like that. That’s pretty boring for our human brains to ingest.
Janelle Changuion:
I think that’s the tricky thing that even I’m still reminding myself constantly as well is that I know my product inside and out, and of course I just want to talk about how amazing my product is, but you can get carried away with just the statistics, and this is what it does, and this is how it can make you better blah blah blah. But really, people are looking for communication and connection. So you really have to try and figure out how to present your own personality and your brand’s personality so that they do remember you and they do make that connection so it builds that whole trust thing again.
Catherine:
Yes, definitely. Establishing trust when you’re selling in an online environment is just so, so important. We don’t have that element of human interaction like you do in a physical shop situation.
Janelle Changuion:
Yes, that’s right.
Catherine:
So the other thing that I thought I would mention just as an idea for listeners if you are considering creating your first brand or undergoing a bit of a rebrand would be, once you think through this process for yourself is to also then really look at the competitive landscape. And by that, I mean, who else is selling similar products to the same customer and really just what’s your reaction to their brand? Do you feel like they’re humorous or serious or how would you position that brand? Is it really luxurious or premium or natural or Boho and really just map them out and you can just do it on a piece of paper. You don’t have to be really sophisticated about these things because at the end of the day, you can’t accidentally or on purpose, be a copycat brand because that will not work at all, will it?
Janelle Changuion:
Yes, that’s right.
Catherine:
We have to find our own unique and authentic place out there in the market to have a hope of success.
Janelle Changuion:
Definitely. Yes. And nobody else has the story that you have. So [crosstalk 00:24:11] at telling your story is really important.
Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just on that note with storytelling, for those who aren’t, Who Gives A Crap customers or subscribers, you should all subscribe to their email list. They are so funny, but they really do manage to actually communicate some important information. So you learn stuff, you’re educated from their content, you can even just read their toilet roll packaging and that sort of thing, and you learn stuff. So it’s very cool the way they tell stories and in a humorous way that’s so engaging.
Janelle Changuion:
Yeah. Yeah. I’ll be able to do that after the…
Catherine:
Well, household of five here we go through a fair bit of loo roll. So you need to have these things delivered when you can’t buy it in the supermarket as the case has been. I would like to also talk about the idea of DIYing your brand design. I know it’s a very tempting thing for people to go quickly whip up their own logo from Canva or go to Fiverr and pay someone five bucks to get a logo, but let’s go through some of the pitfalls and downfalls of going down that route.
Janelle Changuion:
Definitely. I actually belong to a Facebook group. Sarcastically it’s called Design is my Passion and Graphic Design is My Passion, and they always put examples of incredibly bad design on there. It always has a good laugh and a good chuckle at some people who legitimately think that this looks good. It’s very humorous. I think the downfall of DIY… I think there is some room for DIY, but I do believe that when you’re starting out or you’re looking at rebrand, you definitely have to get the rebrand or the branding done initially by a great graphic designer.
Janelle Changuion:
The reason why I say that is because it is like we’ve mentioned before, it’s more than just a logo. There’s a whole lot of different elements that come into what brand design is. And again, it comes back to that consistency. So if you work with a good graphic designer, they will give you something called a brand style guide. So at the end of the branding, they’ll give you a document which has all of your logos, your alternative logos, your brand marks, your typography, your colors, everything to set you on your way to communicate that consistency with your customers and potential customers.
Janelle Changuion:
And I do think that once you have that established and you understand it, then you can definitely translate that stuff into something like Canva, get away with doing some nice, “graphics” or something like that. But you need to have that established at the beginning. One thing that I see happen quite often is people go to Canva. They will make a logo. That logo will be terrible quality. So they really struggle with, if they have to make like a market banner and their printer comes back and like, “Sorry, this is too low resolution. We can’t use this. Can you give us the EPS file, a vector file,” and they’re like, “What? What does that mean?”.
Catherine:
That’s right, “I don’t know what that is”.
Janelle Changuion:
And then it just creates so much nightmare for yourself. You’re actually doing yourself a disfavor by going and trying to do it on the cheap because you’re going to end up spending more time, potentially more money trying to rectify something that could have been done right in the first place. Places like Canva are great for doing a quick, quick graphic that you want to put up on your Facebook page or something, but when it comes to printing and packaging, you just can’t DIY.
Janelle Changuion:
And you want to be able to work with somebody and go, “Oh my goodness, my printer did this, what do I do?”. And generally I go back to my customers and like, “No worries, just send them me the file”. And it literally takes three minutes and there’s help. There’s definitely a time and place to DIY but you need to use it sparingly.
Catherine:
Yeah. And there’s a couple of other things that I thought of as well, just as you’re talking. One being, if you start out on the front foot with something like this and really establish your brand with that professional looking look and feel, but also in a way that is totally consistent in the way you’re communicating visually across all the different places that customers might interact with you, whether it’s website or social media or on your packaging, or in-person in a store or wherever, it’ll be very consistent across the board, it just makes things so much easier to move forward from there; that you don’t have to rethink things every single time you do them, you don’t have to recreate the wheel every time you do something new. It’s already there.
Catherine:
I guess one example or a couple of examples; they’ve been a couple of websites that we’ve been designing recently and prior to us going through that exercise, the websites that they had, they weren’t terrible. They were built on Shopify. They used good quality themes, but they didn’t have that consistency through the design and for a new person coming to those websites, it kind of looks like not so professional. Right?
Catherine:
That first impression is not something you can recreate. So you’ve lost that opportunity to have the right first impression with a new customer. But the other thing which is just as important really in business, is to think about the legalities of your brand. So, if you are going to do it yourself, chances are, you don’t actually understand about trademarks and things like that. And if you accidentally create a logo that is a copy of an existing trademark out there, you can be up for a serious amount of money.
Janelle Changuion:
I’ve actually had where somebody has made their own logo design and they’ve just pulled something from Google, Google images and made their logo around that [inaudible 00:31:30] has just created so much work for them and so much more headaches. They could have spent that time and money creating something unique. That was another point that I wanted to bring out. I keep saying to my husband, I’m like, “There’s that logo again. There’s that logo again. There’s that logo again”. These people that I’m following on Instagram, or I come across on Instagram or Facebook or whatever, all have the same logo because they’re using the same template from Canva. I know exactly where it comes from and I’m like that literally took them five minutes to make that logo. They haven’t put any thought or any effort into it. How can they expect their customers to take them seriously when their customers have probably seen that logo 59 times as well?
Catherine:
Exactly. Or tell them apart. It’s like, “I’m sure I bought from you,” “No, no. That wasn’t us”.
Janelle Changuion:
That’s right. Yeah. Yes.
Catherine:
All right. So hopefully that’s been a little convincing, a few lessons there to anyone who’s thinking about going down this road. So let’s perhaps touch on three… Can you give us a few tips perhaps for anyone who wants to create a new brand or maybe looking to rebrand?
Janelle Changuion:
Yes. I think you touched on it just quickly before to research your competitors. Look and see what your competitors are doing. One important thing is to know your competitors so intimately that you don’t accidentally copy what they’re doing, because that can land you in a lot of hot water and it can also confuse customers and potential customers if you look too much like your competitor or you’ve got a similar voice. So that’s important.
Janelle Changuion:
And then, another thing that I would always advise my clients to do is to jump on somewhere like Pinterest and make a board of all the styles and colors and graphics and stuff that you like, that you feel would best communicate your brand voice and your brand values. I think it’s really helpful to get that visual, like those visual connections, and it really helps your designer as well so that there’s no kind of confusion with what it is that you’re trying to communicate because graphic designers aren’t mind readers.
Catherine:
No. But they are visual people. So if you can give them some inspiration of the visual form, you’ll probably be off to a good start.
Janelle Changuion:
Definitely. And the other thing that I would recommend is don’t just use your aunties, brothers, cousins for your graphic design rebranding. Find somebody whose work you actually love. So if you look at their Instagram and you’re like, “Damn that looks awesome. I want her or him to do my work,” then group those people and ask them how much they’ll charge. They’re probably not going to be the cheapest, but in the long run, they probably [crosstalk 00:34:46].
Catherine:
They’ll get there faster right?
Janelle Changuion:
Yes. If they know what they’re doing, you love it, you’re not going to be disappointed, you’re not going to have to undo it all and get somebody else to fix it. So definitely find someone whose work that you love, that is good quality, that you feel like is best going to be able to produce what it is that you’re trying to communicate through your brand.
Catherine:
Yes, I love that. Such a good tip. I know that in our client base, we’ve had some clients not so much with the brand design step, but with the photography side of things where they’ve had a mate do it for them and because it’s a friend, you can’t really say, “I really don’t like it. It hasn’t hit the mark,” or anything like that. So it can get really awkward. So best to just go and find somebody outside of those family and friend relationships who really, like you say, has the style that you love and that would completely get it. Get what you’re trying to do and nail it quickly and easily.
Janelle Changuion:
Yes, for sure.
Catherine:
I love it. I love it. Now, I want to encourage everybody who is listening to check out Janelle’s new brand Green + Bare. So it’s greenandbare.co. In listening to all of the things that we’ve spoken about today, just really encourage you to take those insights and those tips and go and have a look at Green + Bare and just see how beautifully she’s done it. And I know that you’re very humble Janelle, but you have done such a beautiful job. The products are also awesome as well, I can vouch for that but you’re such a humorous, fun tone of voice as well as being aesthetically beautiful. So go and check it out guys.
Janelle Changuion:
Thank you so much.
Catherine:
So let’s draw it to a close, but thank you so much for joining us on the show today, Janelle, and to sharing your years of wisdom as a designer.
Janelle Changuion:
Oh, it’s always a pleasure for you Cath.
Catherine:
Thank you.
Janelle Changuion:
Awesome.
Catherine:
We’ll catch you later listeners. You will hear me on the show next week. Bye for now.
Janelle Changuion:
Bye.